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Post by Night Owl on Mar 29, 2022 7:38:42 GMT
How did the Greyhawk supplement improve, or un-improve, on the original LBB (little brown books)?
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Post by Tim Fox on Apr 19, 2022 13:34:49 GMT
I was introduced to D&D via Basic and Expert, and later AD&D 1st edition. That is as far as I played D&D. But I now have copies of the 3 LBB which alone are a bit jumbled but elegant in their own way, and a copy of Greyhawk.
I like Greyhawk's addition of the Thief, new monsters, spells, and treasure, but I'm not keen on the 18 plus percentile role for Fighter strength. Though it did do away with the very limited stat modifiers and stats with Strength and Dexterity do much more for example. The thief is a very neat archetype, but I did not like percentile dice for all the stats, and I think of 0e type games, Planet Eris has a much better d6 or 2d6 system for determining a thief's success or failure. Delving Deeper does it well with a d6 roll that never changes for thieves, and WB:FMAG's version which has an increasing chance of success on one single category of all thieving skills called: Thievery, is a very good take too. Greyhawk's Paladin I could really do without as I think Fighters can simply be role-played to do what a Paladin can. Greyhawk starts to get overly complicated with level gains up to level 20 or more, whereas the original listed character levels only until about 10. Some of the additions to race descriptions are interesting, and racial modifiers are added to thievery scores. This book has an errata sheet out there too.
On the whole, while Greyhawk is a bank with some interesting ideas, it adds more rules that complicate a simple system that was meant to emphasize the old school adage of rulings over rules. This has got me more interested in rules which are better organized and all in one place such as WB:FMAG or Delving Deeper, and books in the canon of Night Owl Workshop. These hit about the LBB level of complexity without stressing out about whether you have (or even need) a copy of Chainmail nearby or this supplement or that supplement...
Anyways, just a few thoughts I had. Of course the definitive version (I think) of the 3 LLBs and Greyhawk is Iron Falcon - though Chris Gonnerman worried over copyright issues and did not include everything. But, made a unique retro version that included many elements of Greyhawk into one streamlined ruleset.
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Post by retrodmray on Apr 19, 2022 17:40:25 GMT
I've ran Greyhawk off and on since late 1st edition D&D, and I'd agree that Iron Falcon is indeed pretty doggone good... but then again I'm a huge fan of BFRPG and run it an awful lot these days, so Chris and his teams work is great! 👍
A revisit to Greyhawk these days in gaming wouldn't at all be a bad thing...IMHO. 🙂
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Post by David Pulver on Apr 25, 2022 3:11:28 GMT
How did the Greyhawk supplement improve, or un-improve, on the original LBB (little brown books)? I picked up Greyhawk about 3 months after getting the core rule books, a year or so before AD&D so I kind of got the original experience. I bought my copy at the original Games Workshop store in London.
The things I liked best were: * The descriptions of what elves, dwarves, etc. were; they were kind of lacking in the original * expanded ability modifiers were okay; the % strength seemed like a great way to encourage cheating. Back when we were rolling 3d6 how many people rolled and 18 (1 in 216 chance) and then a 00? Odds are 1 in 21600. Yet there seemed to be one 18/00 guy in every group...
* The expanded MU spells to 9th level and Cleric to 7th. Lot of interesting evocative spells like Clone, Gate, Mirror Image, and Prismatic Wall introduced here.
* Paladins seemed overpowered.
* Thief class was nice, but the % abilities bad. The worst part was the very low percentages for things like Pick Pockets, Hide, etc. out to 5th level or so. What idiot thief would ever risk himself being caught with a 70-90% chance of failure? They should have set things up so that all the abilities had a 50% or better chance to start with and went up more slowly. (Or better yet, given a range of abilities that succeed all the time unless the target makes a saving throw against them.) * Really liked the damage by weapon/monster type. At the time I also liked the alternative combat system bonuses e.g., daggers get -3 vs. plate or whatever, but later felt it was clunky. * Really liked expanded monsters esp. as I didn't have Dragon magazine at the time (where some had appeared before). Nice to get liches, beholders, rust monsters, etc. * Really really liked the expanded magic item listings with the now-iconic original items (ring of shooting stars, vorpal swords, robe of eyes, portable hole, sphere of annihilation, deck of many things, etc.) they did contribute to Monty Haulism and many more cursed items... Lots of high level support. * Really liked the tricks and traps suggestions. That was great. Plus the reminder that you could combine monsters, e.g., "troll with magic spear riding a purple worm." That still isn't done enough today.
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Post by Night Owl on Apr 25, 2022 4:31:53 GMT
Gygax was really exploring unknown territory and all things considered Greyhawk patched many of the (minor) flaws in the original LBB set.
Ability modifiers, variable weapon damage, variable hit dice, XP award guidelines, thief and paladin class, more spells and monsters, so many great new magic items, but it also compounded some problems. I don't know why the mindset was stuck in the 18 cap for abilities and that weird little percentile kludge to strength. Ability limits persisted through AD&D and got a little ridiculous in Deities and Demigods with the 25 cap for gods.
I didn't get Greyhawk until the invention of eBay! So I was late to the party. But the OSR community, and Swords & Wizardry in particular really made me appreciate it. It has become one of my favorites of the original D&D books.
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Post by David Pulver on Apr 25, 2022 18:22:39 GMT
Gygax was really exploring unknown territory and all things considered Greyhawk patched many of the (minor) flaws in the original LBB set. Ability modifiers, variable weapon damage, variable hit dice, XP award guidelines, thief and paladin class, more spells and monsters, so many great new magic items, but it also compounded some problems. I don't know why the mindset was stuck in the 18 cap for abilities and that weird little percentile kludge to strength. Ability limits persisted through AD&D and got a little ridiculous in Deities and Demigods with the 25 cap for gods. I didn't get Greyhawk until the invention of eBay! So I was late to the party. But the OSR community, and Swords & Wizardry in particular really made me appreciate it. It has become one of my favorites of the original D&D books.
From what I've read, Greyhawk represented material that had largely been fully playtested in Gygax's own campaign, plus a few choice selections from early Strategic Review issues. Greyhawk was definitely appreciated, and I think that it can be said that Greyhawk + the three black books were the heart of Original D&D that most people played at the time. Although there was a bit of a fashion for the original three books in the OSR movement, historically speaking I know of zero groups "back then" who played D&D without Greyhawk once it came out. (The same is NOT true of Blackmoor or Eldritch Wizardry, many of whose rules weren't widely welcomed).
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Post by finarvyn on Apr 18, 2023 10:20:42 GMT
Greyhawk is an interesting product in that it changes the feel of the game quite a bit. Greyhawk is the start of the power gamer.
(1) Better combat bonuses. Reason to roll really well or devise new ways to roll stats, like roll 4 keep 3.
(2) Level inflation. Elves and dwarves with high stats can level up higher.
(3) More spells. More combat spells. Higher level, so more reason to level up higher.
(4) More magical items. Better plusses on magic weapons.
(5) Different hit die types means wizards become squishy.
What Greyhawk did well is bring in the thief.
The original boxed set by itself (or boxed set plus thief) has a certain charm to it. When you hit Super Hero you feel like you pretty much beat the game and can start over with new characters. Somewhere around there the magic-user can cast the best spells in the game. Level caps for elves, dwarves, and hobbits don't seem too unfair. The game is pretty self-contained. The addition of Greyhawk advances the "bigger, better, higher" philosophy of play. The race to get to the top, but the top is pushed a lot higher than anticipated in the boxed set. Pretty soon the characters are better than the best monsters, so they need to fight demons and devils and gods. D&D achieves a whole new scale of play.
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